Why Stories Make Us Feel Connected | Insights from David Hutchens

David Hutchens shares how he discovered his superpower of storytelling to help leaders unlock their potential and possibilities with their teams. David shares the why and how stories connect us, reveals and amplifies our humanity, help drive transformative change in organizations, and enables us to make meaningful impact in the world.

The first secret David shares: While storytelling is a superpower we all innately possess, and yet most of us think we suck at it, you’re actually already pretty good at it. In fact, you’re wired for it.

And yet, in this conversation, he shares the one thing that even he needs again and again to be effective at it.

David is an author and CEO of The Storytelling Leader, and he joins us to share his experiences with his superpower, “Helping people awaken the more human parts of themselves.”

David wants us to know that stories are not just for retelling what happened. Stories are the beginning of something bigger. Stories can change the world, in fact, they always have.

While sharing the practical guidance he gives leaders, he is quick to point out that storytelling should not just be the domain of the top leader. All leaders at all levels of the organization can use storytelling to align, inspire, and motivate.

David shares that storytelling holds the awesome power of connection, meaning making, and transformation. Stories can connect us emotionally and inspire us. And when stories do that, it’s magnetic.

In this episode, David answers the following questions:
➡️ What is the secret to great storytelling?
➡️ What is the role of storytelling in transformative change?
➡️ What do leaders need to become great storytellers?
➡️ What is the impact of storytelling on culture?

Favorite quotes from the episode: 
 
“Stories are the language of taking dismembered systems, remembering them, and making them whole.” David Hutchens

"Love is the only emotion that expands the intelligence of the system"
Humberto Maturana, Chilean Bioethicist, in "The Biology of Business:
Love Expands Intelligence"

“Stories connect us to the organization and bring us back to ourselves.” David Hutchens on the power of storytelling in times of change and transformation.

Music in this episode by Ian Kastner.

"What Do You Know To Be True?" is a series of conversations where I speak with interesting people about their special talent or superhero power and the meaningful impact it has on others. The intention is to learn more about their experience with their superhero power, so that we can learn something about the special talent in each of us which allows us to connect more deeply with our purpose and achieve our potential.

For more info about the podcast or to check out more episodes, go to: https://whatdoyouknowtobetrue.com

"What Do You Know To Be True?" is hosted by Roger Kastner, is a production of Three Blue Pens, and is recorded on the ancestral lands of the Duwamish and Suquamish people. To discover the ancestral lands of the indigenous people whose land you may be on, go to: https://native-land.ca/

Keywords
#DiscoverYourSuperpower #UnlockYourPotential #UnlockYourPossibilities #MakeMeaningfulImpact

Transcript

TRANSCRIPTS Why Stories Make Us Feel Connected - Insights from David Hutchens
#DiscoverYourSuperpower #UnlockYourPotential #UnlockYourPossibilities #MakeMeaningfulImpact

David: That's what story does. It connects audiences. It connects different parts of the organization that don't talk to each other. It connects us with ourselves as well. Our minds and our hearts and our spirits story is the language of, of integration. It's the, the language of. Taking dismembered systems and re bering them and bring, making them more whole.

So that's what happens. This, this language brings us back to ourselves. 

Roger: Storytelling is a superpower we all innately possess, and yet most of us think we suck at it. Today's guest, David Hutchins, has been coaching leaders and teams on storytelling for decades, and he'll be the first to tell you that you do not suck at it.

And yet in this conversation, he does share the one thing that even he needs again and again. To be effective at it. David is an author and a CEO of the storytelling leader, and he joins us to share his experience with his superpower, helping people awaken to the more human parts of themselves. David wants us to know that stories are not just for retelling what happened, but that stories are the beginning of something bigger.

David: We keep using this word storytelling like it's a one-way transaction. It's not, it's always the beginning of a dialogue. Invite the story. Ask your system for the stories. You would be amazed some of the stories out there that you haven't heard. 

Roger: David shares that storytelling holds the awesome power of connection, meaning making and transformation stories can connect us emotionally and inspire us to take action.

And when that happens. It's magnetic, 

David: but when we bring, uh, this positive emotion forward, your IQ goes up there. There's not even, it's not even a little bit of evidence. There's decades of evidence showing that if you can create a joy, experience, results. Improve and it's been replicated in lots of different systems.

It was the positive emotion that makes the system overall more resilient, more intelligent, and more creative. 

Roger: Hi, I'm Roger Kastner and welcome to the What Do You Know To Be True Podcast. I work with leaders and teams to co-create new pathways to being better versions of themselves. And these conversations are intended to amplify the stories and experiences of people who have done just.

That the goal is to become more inspired from their experiences with their superpowers so that we can discover more about ourselves and the special talent in each of us that drive us towards living into our possibilities. If you're ready, let's dive in.

Hey David, thank you for joining me today. I'm so glad we're gonna have this conversation. 

David: I've been looking forward to this. Bring it on. 

Roger: Awesome. And I'm really excited to get into your superpower of helping people awaken to the more human parts of themselves and the role that the work you do around storytelling has to, has to do with that.

But before we get too far. I wanna slow down a little bit and give you a chance to tell us what's important for us to know about you. 

David: My work is going around the world and helping leaders tell stories, and it's, it's a sweet gig. I mean, I, I get to fly to, to Paris and Singapore and all across, uh, Silicon Valley and say to leaders, Hey, I think you should be exercising this most human voice.

That you already possess. You know, it's not about public speaking skills, it's, it's about taking your brain's natural operating system from making sense of the world and connecting it to the work that you're doing. This is what I do, and it's a lot of fun, and we can connect it to business outcomes, and that's what we can explore today.

Roger: I love that because it's not like I'm not gonna teach you the magic and the craft of storytelling. I'm gonna let you tell your story in the most human way possible and support that happening, not teach you the craft of speaking. 

David: Did I get that right? That's exactly right. A a lot of people who do story work that they start with how to tell a good story, you know?

Oh, there's gotta be a beginning, middle, and an end. There's gotta be a conflict. You need a protagonist. Yes, and this is humanity's oldest technology for connection and sense making and identity formation. And we've been doing this for tens of thousands of years. So this isn't about performing, it's about taking this age old capability and being more mindful about how we connect it to the work that we care about.

Roger: I'm curious about the work you do with leadership with leaders to help them become better storytellers and tell that more human parts of themselves and everyone's story is different. We were just talking a little bit about the process. I'm interested, like is it a similar process or does you know, just as there's different humans, is there a different way that you work with leaders based on who they are?

David: I think it's the intentionality because, you know, I, I have friends who are screenwriters in, in Hollywood, and when we bring this capability into organizations, it's, there's some things that are different about it in organizations. There, there is this sense making piece of the story. We tell a story and then we have a conversation where the, and and leaders usually go first.

I think that story says something about who we are. And so that intentionality, that, that sense making. And then we invite the team in to become interpretive community and they talk about, Hmm, I heard something in that story. Now we're doing something with the story that's different because, you know, when you go to the movies, the, the movie doesn't have that conversation.

If you ever saw, you know, Mulhall Drive any David Lynch movie, if at the end of it you're going, I have no, I don't know what the hell that was. David Lynch loved that he, he didn't want to tell you what the story is about in organizations. We're not telling stories to entertain. We're telling stories to align.

We're telling stories because there's something we wanna move forward. And so there's this sense making conversation that happens when we tell the stories. And it's, it's kind of hard to do, to be honest. 'cause I, I, I started my career in advertising. I used to work in big ad agencies as a copywriter. And so the, the account executive would bring me the creative brief right here, here's the product, here's the client, here's the value proposition that has to come across in the ad.

And then my job was to work from that and go backwards. What's a story? What's an image? What's a metaphor? What is some kind of emotional connection that gets us to that value proposition? It's hard. I would spend days, I'd have hundreds of sticky notes all over the wall before we would find the story that gets us there.

So, so yeah, that's, that's what I do with leaders because as you know, from your conversations around joy, when we feel something that sticks in the body, we, we don't remember what we think. We remember what we feel. We don't take action based on what we think. We take action based on what we feel. I left the ad business 'cause.

I didn't love it. Um, but in some ways I bring some of those ideas into leadership because I see that as the role of the leader as well. When there's work that we care, care about, when we need people to align and move forward, let's connect those messages to. Emotions and leaders keep forgetting to do that.

You know, they, they look at the stuck system. Oh, people aren't moving. They're not embracing the new strategy, they're not joining the transformation journey. And, and so leaders bring forward new data. Here's some more data, here's some more slides. And what they need to be doing is connecting that change to emotions.

What is the, what's the urgent work you need to move through the world? The leader's job is to connect it to feelings. Story is the most intuitive and most natural language for getting you there. 

Roger: I I also love this idea of being able to identify what those emotions are that you're trying to invoke with the story.

And that makes me wonder, let's, let's sort of flip this. What does it feel like for you when you've helped a leader awaken that more human part of them that gets represented in the stories they tell? I've been. 

David: Reading about the science of Neuroception, which says that when you and I are talking, and if, if you and I were hanging out in person with, with a cappuccino between us, it would be even better.

You know, the, the, this little camera right here acts as a little bit of, of a filter, but even still, as we're telling stories to each other as we're sharing emotional moments together, our neurologists are connecting. We're like mapping each other's minds. I'm understanding who Roger is and Roger's understanding who David is.

So when I see leaders tell stories and they have this moment where they go. Oh my God, that that felt really powerful. I felt something happen in me. I go, well, I felt something happen as well. The science calls this neuro coupling. If you took me telling a story and slid me into an MRI machine, and we have these, we have the brain scans.

We know what your brain looks like on story. If we slid me into an MRI, we would see that my brain's really active. And then if we slid you into a second MRI. As I'm telling a story, what we see is that your brain is lit up in a pattern nearly identical to my brain, and that's the neural coupling. Some scientists call that neural entrainment.

Like there, there's even a video, there's a TED talk with a, a guy from Princeton, uh, Yuri Hassan. He actually shows the brainwaves coming into alignment. You see, you know, here's the teller, here's the listener, and you see the brainwaves doing this when they move into story language. It's really fascinating and it's really powerful.

That's what I explore with my, with my leaders, is we can bring this moment where you and I are joined in this really powerful human way. We can bring this into more parts of the work that you're doing. So that's what we explore. 

Roger: You were also just talking about before that response about the role of data in storytelling.

A lot of times when leaders are presenting, it's all data. Like we've seen those slides that are just data, data, data, data. And this was something actually, I responded to one of your posts and LinkedIn just this week about how within the team that I work with, we are talking about the role of storytelling and how it needs both.

The, the, the story and the data, and they're not, they shouldn't be decoupled. There's something about left brain, um, left brain, right brain, you know, belief in a story. The emotional connection as well as the data just sort of shows a little bit of proof. And what I have found when I'm talking to data people.

They're often talking about the power of storytelling, that they know that they have to be able to tell stories with the data for people to receive the messages they're trying to, they're trying to share. And then there's storytelling people that wanna tell stories, but there's still like a little lack of credibility to the story if there's not some kind of proof.

David: Right. A lot of my work is with data and science leaders. Uh, when I, when I've worked with nasa. You know, super, super smart science leaders. Some of them have like. Double PhDs and you know, they, they go to Congress to ask for their budget and they've been going with, with data slides. They showed me some of the data slides.

It's like scatter plot graphs of climate science. And, and I feel dumb when I look at 'em. I have no idea. And you can imagine congressmen looking at that and, and so they don't get the budget when they do that. And so I've been helping them tell these human. Stories. Here's what it looks like. Here's why I care about this work data.

People struggle with this language of talking about why they believe in the work. That feels like an alien language. And yet, uh, my client told me, Dave, we're, we're doing it. We're we bring, we're bringing our stories to, to congress. We're getting the budget. 

Roger: I was recently watching a documentary about where, um, they asked an astronaut, I think it was Armstrong, but I, you know, don't, don't let the truth get in the way of a good story where they asked, you know, they're taking, they're taking pictures of the moon, um, and they asked the astronaut to turn the camera and take a picture of the earth.

You know, with where you can see no borders, where you can see just land and water and clouds, and that, that moment was transformative for humans to see, oh, this is what we look like from outer space, from really zoomed out and how powerful those pictures are of the earth. And it just, it just changes your, your perspective on things.

And I think. That is invoking different emotions, that's bringing in different perspectives and really changing the conversation. And I think the, the, there are some scales to storytelling, um, in, in that, you know, when, when leaders are able to get us to feel, to think differently, um, to, you know, question old beliefs or accept new ones, um, that is.

Is really powerful. We were just talking about data and anecdotal, but I think all those things come together and maybe not a, a part of it is natural and part of it is, you know, we have to be reminded of how to do that. And that sounds like what you're bringing to the table. 

David: It is natural. Um, and we do need to be reminded.

Because you, you're exactly right. You know, if, if you went out for drinks with friends last night or if you had dinner with, with loved ones, someone at the table told stories. Then somebody else at the table said, Ooh, ooh, ooh, I have a story like that. And then somebody else said, Ooh, ooh, I've got one.

Until everybody was jumping in, building on, on the stories. So we're already doing this thing. And you're right, we have to be reminded because when we walk into the organization, something changes. We turn off this, this natural sensemaking capability. And we start talking in a different way. We start talking like a PowerPoint slide or, I don't know, maybe we just wanna show how smart we are and stories feel too subjective or something.

But we start using this different kind of language and a lot of the work I'm doing is just reminding people, take this language you already possess and let's start connecting it to the work that we're doing right now. 

Roger: Do you think becoming a good storyteller is more a process of adding. Skills or stripping down beliefs of how to be a good storyteller.

And I believe you're gonna yes and me right now, so go for it. 

David: I, I'm just gonna pause to appreciate the question because, uh, I've never heard the, a question, the question phrased quite like that before. What a cool question are we adding or are we stripping down? Well, I mean, Roger, I think it's a yes and 

Roger: thank you for that.

You know, oftentimes I think what's intimidating when we're learning new skills, when we're trying to do something that might seem natural, we've seen people do it really well. It's like, oh, that's a capability. They know something I'm missing. So like, do I even try to do this because I don't have that information of how to do it or I haven't practiced enough.

And what you're saying around storytelling is like, yeah, we've been doing it for a couple million years. It's in your DNA, you're already really good about it. You did it last night when having dinner or drinks with friends. Ah. But there are some things that help us do it better, and some of that is probably yes, building skills.

And probably some of it is like, hey, all that limiting belief about being a great, you know, Ted talk qualities storyteller. Right, right. Let let that stuff go my friend. So. I think I answered the question, but you please, you're the expert. No, 

David: no, I, you, you, you did answer the question brilliantly, and I think it's something even deeper.

I, I, I think there's, there's fear in this conversation because a lot of the we leaders I work with come in saying we love storytelling, we need to be telling stories. And, and then after we do some work together, a lot of 'em, chicken out. At the last minute because after they start exercising this different voice, they start going, wow, that, that felt different.

And what they discover is that there's something about this language that is narrative, that when we're telling stories, it's like we open ourselves up, we're revealing more of who we are with this language. And some leaders aren't used to doing that. And, and they say. I don't like this. I mean, it's, it's Brene Brown's vulnerability thing, right?

We, the, the language is just naturally more vulnerable. And the trait, the, the balance of that is you, you bring that humanity more of who you are and you get that engagement and that connection. And some leaders decide. It's not worth it to me. I don't wanna reveal myself. I'd rather go back to data speak where I look really smart and I look like I'm in control and I don't have to use this language that has emotion content in it that makes me uncomfortable.

So I think fear is a big part of this work. 

Roger: So what do you do with those leaders who are, you know, two thirds through the, you know, the, the David Hutchins program or whatever, you know, going through that experience and they're, they're like, okay, I tried it. I don't like being vulnerable in front of people.

I'm gonna stop. 

David: I get them to 

Roger: try it. 

David: Stand up in front of your group and e express yourself using this different language. Bring narrative language. Watch what happens. The thing about telling stories, when you're in a room, when you use story language, like you, you feel the, you feel the energy, you feel it in your body.

You feel what's coming from the, the audience, and it's just different. You, you see the postures change. You see people put their phones down and they look up again and go, Ooh. Now you've got eye contact. They start literally, they lean forward with their postures and leaders say, okay, I want more of that.

And they decide that the payoff is worth the personal risk most of the time. Most of the time. 

Roger: I see this a lot of times as well when I'm working with leaders. Not in the context of storytelling, but whether we're doing, you know, some type of transformation or significant change within their organization, they get, you know, they, they're all on board with the process until at one point they're not, and whether it's just impatience with progress or maybe they're getting a little bit more downward pressure or the next thing's coming up and they have to move faster.

There's, there's an element of just, it feels like losing stamina. It feels like fear is taking over, or maybe it's just impatience, but then it's like, okay, well not we, we agreed that this is a good thing before, now we're in the middle of it. Why are we stopping? And that idea of just like, okay, how do we give them just a little bit more exposure therapy?

How do we get them just to keep. Keep at it a little bit as something that comes up for me in my line of work, um, both org development practitioner as a coach. And so I was curious to hear your answer to that because it's, it, it feels very similar. 

David: Yeah. There, there are these emotion currents running through the system.

I mean, through, through any social system system where there's human beings, there are these emotion currents and, and most of the time they're invisible most of the time. I don't think we have a good language for talking about that. That's why I love story. Story is like putting on these goggles that make these invisible dynamics just now you see them and story is the language that allows you to do something with those emotion currents in the system.

Another response I might give to the leader who's tired or scared or doesn't wanna do this. Okay? Invite the stories. Don't forget your team has stories you haven't heard. It can be a really beautiful thing to do to bring the team together and put away computers. I, I even push tables away and sit in circles so that our knees are almost touching each other so that we're seeing each other and I use, tell me about a time language, right.

Tell me about a time when you remembered why you were proud to work here. Tell me about a time when you, when you or a team member solved a tough problem with ingenuity. Tell me about a time when you saw a leader live. One of our values. Even though it may have come with a cost and then they take turns telling these stories to each other.

Afterwards, like some people might be crying. There's, there's like, love in the room. People wanna go out drinking afterwards because they've had this powerful connection with each other. So we keep using this word storytelling, like it's a one-way transaction. It it's not, it's always the beginning of a dialogue.

Invite the story, ask your system for the stories. You would be amazed some of the stories out there that you haven't heard. 

Roger: You're just talking about the neuroscience of when you're sharing stories and we start again, those, those mirror neurons and the, the, um, the electro-magnetic fields that are emanating from our hearts all in connection.

In relationship with each other. Super powerful. And I was thinking about how oftentimes when I'm working with some of the leaders or clients where I will tell them, Hey, about two thirds on this process, you are gonna lose patience. You might get a little tired of me asking pokey questions, or you're just gonna wanna like be done and launch this thing.

That's a form of data. I'm telling them what's gonna happen. That's data. I'm not telling a story. You're, you've just gave me a great idea. The next time I'm in that situation, I'm gonna tell a story of how a leader wanted to quit. And yet they continued, they persevered, they did the thing. With a, with a really positive result.

Right. So you're, you're teaching me already. I really appreciate that. 

David: Yeah. You, you, you bring in that story language. Hey, I worked with a guy who was kind of like you. Something really interesting. A actually with that guy was really interesting. Here's what he said to me. And, and tell it in story language.

And now because of the neuro coupling thing, the leader you're talking to is gonna say, yeah, that's really good. I actually feel a little bit different. And then you get to go, oh, really? Tell me about that. Right, so, so the leader puts himself in the story. So now we're no longer talking about the story.

Now the audience has put themselves in the story and we're able to make the translation translation and say, let's talk about you now. 

Roger: Adaptability. Is, uh, one of the key themes of these conversations. It's one of those pillars to living into your possibilities, and I think of adaptability as that combo of learning agility and growth mindset and resilience.

I'm curious about your superpower and how it relates to adaptability. I love that, 

David: that your theme this year is joy. Because the, the thing I've been looking at is the, the role of positive emotion in, in systems change. There's a, a theorist who, uh, hu do you know Humberto Maana? He's a Chile, no Chilean bioethicist, but one of his great quotes that really captures me, he says, love is the only emotion that expands the intelligence of the system.

So, so now I'm not even talking about joy. Now I've elevated it to, to love, right? But when we bring, uh, this positive emotion forward, there's something happening where literally your IQ goes up there. There's not even, it's not even a little bit of evidence, there's decades of evidence showing that if you can create a joy experience, results.

And it's been replicated in lots of different systems. It was the positive emotion that makes the system overall more resilient, more intelligent, and more creative. And so this is an invitation for leaders who, who feel fear when they bring this, their emotional selves forward. Let's, let's bring the joy forward.

Let's bring the, the love forward. Not because we're good people to me, that's a good enough reason. But would you like the team to be smarter? Would you like it to be more creative? And they say, yeah, I'd like that. Well, we gotta invest our, we gotta invest more of our hearts in that. And you get those results, right?

So. Positive emotion, including stories increase the resilience and adaptability of the system. 

Roger: Yeah. And I asked the question about adaptability and you went to Joy, and I'm like, oh, I didn't ask the right question. I should have asked, Hey, how does your superpower relate to joy? But it's 

David: all, maybe because I don't draw that much distinction between joy and adaptability in my mind, they've merged so much, you 

Roger: know?

Oh, interesting. And what I love, the story I'm taking from that is. This really positive way of looking at, at adaptability as being an opportunity, as being a way of producing joy because you're, you have the trust in yourself and the trust and the perseverance and the resilience and everything that comes with taking on various.

Opportunities or challenges or things that life throws at you knowing that there's gonna be positive, positive outcomes of it. Even though like you might not win the game, you might not win that client proposal, but there's gonna be something that's gonna be positive that comes out of that. Am I, am I reading that correctly?

David: You, you, you are indeed one. So I was just with a group the, the other day and, and I showed 'em a great story that came from Southwest Airlines. So they, they're really good at this skill. They have institutionalized the story skill externally and internally. Uh, and one of the stories I showed there, there's this great story I saw on LinkedIn.

About this couple that got on a Southwest plane and they were dressed up, you know, for a wedding. Did, did you see this when it was all over? No, no. A little while. And, and they, you know, their other flight on a competitor airline had been canceled, so they were gonna miss their wedding date in, in Vegas.

Mm-hmm. And so they made a joke to the pilot, we should just get married on the plane. And the pilot goes, Ooh, let's do it. There's photos of this couple. Holding hands, doing their, their vows in the aisle of the plane and like there's toilet paper streamers hanging up. And then the flight attendants, it's of honor and, and everybody, you know, all the passengers signed the guest book and put in their seat numbers and, and it was, it's this, it's goofy and beautiful and one of my friends said.

Well, you know, Southwest, they've got lots of weird stuff like that. If, if I had cool stuff like that happening in my company, I could tell stories like that and I was like, it's the other way around. It's the other way around. The reason why cool stuff like that keeps happening at Southwest is because they're telling the stories.

So this is the adaptability connection because of the neural coupling that we talked about. When you hear, say the Southwest wedding story. Everybody goes, oh, you know, they get, they get that human emotion connection. They go, oh, I love that. Well, that's the neural coupling at some level as you're listening to that story, that's you in the place of the captain saying, I'd like to help you get married right now on this plane.

Like, you hold the emotion and even the muscle memory of the behaviors. And so, so what I say to leaders is, what are the behaviors you would like to see more of in the system? Tell stories that have those behaviors in them. And then keep telling them. And what you'll see is you'll, those behaviors will start to emerge in the system.

Uh, there's a theorist, David Cooperrider, who calls this the anti anticipatory principle of organizations organizational systems move in the direction of the positive stories and images we place in front of them, tell stories with the desired behaviors in them. And, and this is the adaptability piece.

You'll start seeing new behaviors emerge within the system. As a leader, you have this incredible power to invite in the new behaviors, to invite in that adaptability by using this language you already possess. It's so powerful and I'm always amazed how many leaders aren't doing this. 

Roger: I'm currently working with a, with a group.

Doing a transformation and we're, we're really good at identifying what those behaviors are. Um, and I'm asking the leadership team like, Hey, you need to go demonstrate those behaviors. So it show, you know, people, when you start talking about those behaviors, people be like, oh yeah, no, I saw you acting with accountability or I saw you, whatever it is.

The storytelling though feels like the missing component, so. That's, that's something that I, that I'm gonna add to the, to the bag of tricks there, of, you know, being very specific. Okay. What, what's a story around this behavior? Then like, okay, thanks for telling me. Now go tell everyone and keep going and keep, keep telling them.

David: That absolutely is the, the, the two step, the one, two dance of, of the culture change. And actually you've got the, the piece that most people miss, which is leaders doing something different. It's funny, one, the research I read was that. We've never seen a case where announcing a culture change had any impact on culture change.

Like announcing we're doing this doesn't do anything. What does make a difference is when leaders, uh, adopt counter-cultural behaviors and the, the more shocking, the better. So that's the piece most people miss. That it, it sounds like you've got, and then there's that second piece of, tell that story. 

Roger: What or who inspired you to have this superhero Power of awakening people.

To the more human parts of themselves. 

David: Back in the early two thousands, uh, I was living in Atlanta, Georgia. I'm in Nashville, Tennessee now, but I was living in Atlanta. I just left the ad business. I knew I didn't wanna write about hamburgers anymore. I wanted to write about leadership, and uh, I wanted to get in with the Coca-Cola company, which is headquartered there in Atlanta.

So finally, one day I got a call. From somebody at Coca-Cola and they said, Hey, we, we need some communications help. Can you come in? I put on a tie and, and, and I, I drove in and here's the challenge that the lady shared with me. So at the time, in the two early two thousands, Coca-Cola was on the system-wide transformation journey to become what was known as a learning organization.

And they said, we've run into a problem where early in the work, no one understands what we're talking about. And so they're like, can you create a, a communication solution to help people understand what a learning organization was? And I was like, yeah, of course I could do that. And then I went home and I, I panicked and I didn't know what else to do, so, so I created a blank page on my computer and I wrote the words.

Once upon a time, there was a wolf. I wrote this crazy story about a flock of sheep that outwits a pack of hungry wolves, and in the process they display the capabilities of a learning organization. And I thought, man, I'm, I'm so fired from Coca-Cola, I'm never gonna work there again. And I, I brought it to Coca-Cola and, and.

I didn't get fired. What happened was a publisher picked it up and then, uh, and, and I called this story out learning the wolves, and I dropped in, you know, funny cartoons from an illustrator friend of mine. It had snarky jokes in it, and out learning the wolves ended up going viral. It's today it's like in 12 different languages, you know, half a million copies.

It's still selling, it's, it's still inviting conversations around a, about organizational learning. Cultures all over the world. And so that was the moment where I said, all right, what just happened here? What was that? This thing that I thought was gonna get me fired instead changed my career. Right? And so that was the moment where I said, there's something in this language that is narrative.

Something different is happening and it, and it, it invites a different kind of behavioral response as well. And so that was really kind of the moment where I said, I think I'm gonna pay attention to this, to this phenomenon. That storytelling, that was the early two thousands. It was still considered a weird idea, you know, people weren't really talking about it then.

Now everybody's talking about it. And so it was so much fun. I just kind of stuck with it. So that's what I've been doing for more than 20 years now. 

Roger: So what do you know to be true about awakening people to the more human parts of themselves? 

David: I know that it is a journey of courage. I'll say it again. When leaders use this language that is story, they, they come into it because they've heard it's powerful.

They've heard that it's a source of influence. And leaders say, oh, if I tell a story, I can get what I want. Yeah, we, we can talk about that, but there's this investment that comes with it and, and it is scary. And even still, you know, if you follow me on, on LinkedIn, I, I tell personal stories. There's still a part of me that, especially if it's a story about me, if it's kind of vulnerable, I go, Ooh, I hope this is okay.

I hope people don't judge me. I hope they like it. I hope it's not cringey. I hope it's not weird, like thi this voice in my head that's thinking about, you know, where do I fit in in the social system and do I have influence and do people like me? Am I rising? Am I fa like the, the part of our brains that's doing that is gonna go haywire when you tell stories.

And so what I know to be true is this journey of humanity is what makes us alive, and it's what brings us joy. And there's. There's fear in there when we do that. 

Roger: I love this idea of, well, I don't love the idea that we're afraid to show who we are. 'cause I, I feel that I know when I put something, you know, whether I'm sharing it with a team or I'm putting it on social, that's a little bit more in that vulnerable that.

I know exactly what you're talking about. Do you really, 

David: because I've observed that you do it so well and seemingly easily and naturally, so, so likewise. 

Roger: Likewise. Right? You do it as well. And so there's, it's interesting to hear that we both are like, uh, like do I really wanna share this? And do I really wanna hit publish?

Do I wanna delete that post? And yet we work with leaders who are feeling the same way. We're coaching them, like, no, no, no. Come on. Yeah, like, step up, do your thing, show them who you are, show them what you believe in, show 'em what you value. And, you know, maybe, maybe since we're doing this for other people, what's it like to like coach ourselves?

Or do we need, you know, this is why we have friends, this is why we, you know, reach out to, to, you know. Our, our friends and ask them like, I'm about to do this. Should I do this? And they're like, you should totally do this. This sounds great. I'm all, I'm all with you. It's, it's kinda interesting. Our, the cheerleaders on the sidelines are, um, we need them.

We need them to show up with that courage that you're just talking about. 'cause sometimes the courage doesn't, doesn't just show up with our, with our big ideas and the things that we wanna share with others. 

David: Well, I'm so glad you said that. 'cause part of my approach is building story as a team capability.

I don't think this capability works very well in isolation. I, I, I think it's a full system capability. And even though the name, you know, the program I bring forward is called the Storytelling Leader. Um. It's not about one person, it's, it's about a system. And how are we inviting this more human voice of sense making and connection and engagement so that it becomes a system-wide capability.

And so a lot of my work is, you know, it's the full group. Somebody tells a story and I'll say to the team. Let's talk about what you heard in the story. Now they're invited to become interpretive community. Ooh, that story says something about who we are. I heard something about why we do what we do in there, and so not only are we building the capability of telling these these compelling stories, we're building this sense making meaning, making capability across the team as well.

Roger: This, the value of doing it as a team. It makes me think about, uh, Nicole Kincaid, who works with individuals and groups on the relationship they have with their stuff. So she's not coming in and just like decluttering people's homes, but she is found that when she works one-on-one with someone about their.

Clutter their stuff and what they want to clear out. There's almost a little bit of of resistance when it's one-on-one, but when she does it in a group, she'll bring people together. They'll get on Zoom, they'll talk about what the one thing they're gonna go work on for the next 45 minutes. Everyone is super jazzed as we do this thing as a group.

When it's one-on-one, it feels like there's more resistance, more hesitation, more being judged. But when we do it as a team. We're all in it together, and I could see that working for, you know, stuff. And I could see that working for, I'm gonna say it's for storytelling, but it's really about shared values and vision 

David: and, and shared meaning making as well.

That, that's a fascinating example that you just shared. That's really cool. Um, because we, yeah, we're, we're meaning making creatures and we make meaning in community. And, and I believe that that process you just described of, of talking about our stuff and what does it mean and what's important to us. I think communities that create me or people that make meaning together become communities.

I think the process of talking about what things mean. Turns us into friends. So now we're trying in in community and it's a really powerful thing to do. Who are we? What do we care about? Why are we here? What do we think matters? 

Roger: So what did you used to believe to be true about your superpower that you've come to learn is no longer true?

David: I, I almost hate to say this one. Um, 

Roger: wait, we were just talking about being vulnerable and needing cheerleaders. Let's go, David. Let's go. Bring it. Bring 

David: it. But because I'm a learning guy and, and I'm encouraging and, and all that, I think I used to make too big a deal out of this is the natural language you already possess.

You can do this. Because that, that's true. We, you're already a storytelling creature. But there's a paradox in this because this capability that we already possess and, and, and do naturally is also really hard. And it, there's a part of it that's an art form. And both of those things are true at the same time.

You're already telling stories. No one has to tell you to do this. You're already doing it. And my friends who are in Hollywood who've been writing screenplays for 20 years, say, I'm only just now getting a little bit good at this story thing. Yeah. So sometimes I, I wonder if I haven't given enough credence to how much discipline this skill requires, because there's story mechanics.

There's understanding theme and subtext. There's the meaning making piece. We're talking about how, how do you talk about what a story means, right? I, I know PhD therapists who've studied for a few years so that they can get pretty good at helping you and your partner understand what the stories in your marriage mean, right?

So it's, it's a deep, deep capability. We're already doing this and it's hard. It's the, it's a journey of a lifetime to get really good at this. 

Roger: Okay, we're gonna geek out on some other terms. There's this idea, the learning journey, where we go from the unconscious incompetence to the conscious incompetence, and that's probably where most people start with the storytelling and they're like, okay, I do tell stories, but I don't know how to be really good at it.

And that I could see that being a real blocker for people of like, okay, how do you move them from, from, you know, the awareness of they're not being good at it. We have so much exposure to people being great storytellers. There's not only just all the movies and the books that we've been consuming, it's, it's very hard to go onto YouTube without seeing an amazing, you know, Ted Talk.

Or moth storytelling hour, right? Like this is, this is kind of in our culture now, and I think it's a little bit of this, um, a lot of expectations of, okay, you're gonna tell a story, okay, entertain my socks off right now. And it's like, no, it doesn't have to be that at that level. Yeah, I could see how that'd be a barrier for some people.

David: I love that you're connecting Johari window to storytelling. I, I don't think I've ever quite overlaid that model on storytelling. 'cause you're right, everybody starts there. Everybody knows somebody who's a great storyteller, and they're, they're the life at the party, and they're the person you wanna sit next to at the, at the team dinner because they're so much fun.

And everybody says, I'm not that guy, except for the few people who actually are that guy. But most people say, I can't do that. Um, so everybody has this con that would be the conscious incompetence, right? 

Roger: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So the first thing I do 

David: is send them back to the conscious competence. You're already doing this.

Let me show you what that this looks like, and now let's start building on that skill. 

Roger: That's good, 

David: Roger. Thank you for that. That's good. 

Roger: I'm here for you, brother. So what's next for you and your superpower of helping to awaken the human parts within people? What's next is 

David: impact and, and I'm thinking about what am I putting out there that that's, that lasts, that, that's beyond me.

And so from a business point of view, that, that looks like licensing. You know, I'm, I'm a learning guy, so I do some coaching. That's one person at a time. If it's a training program that's, I don't know, 30 people at a time, licensing that can be, you know, I'm working with one of the big consulting tech consulting firms right now, one of the big four to, to bring the story skill to thousands of their employees.

Now we're talking about systems impact and what does it look like where we're inviting this most human voice of leadership, not to a small team, but saying at a systemic level. This is the language we wanna invite all across the enterprise. And so I'm, I'm having a, a blast bringing storytelling to solving.

Bigger problems. You know, we're, we're talking about identity and culture and belonging and what is the role of storytelling and being really intentional about our collective identity and how do we build that in at a big, systemic level. And licensing and internal certification allows me to decouple this from me and my personality and me standing in front of a group.

You know, I only have so many hours in a day and now building this capability. Much larger systems. I'm having a blast with this. I'm going, why didn't I start doing this sooner? It's a better payday. That's true. But really it's, it's, it's about impact. It's, it's about bigger systems change and it's really fun to see the, the impact that this can have.

Roger: What I'm picking up in what you're saying is, you know, not only do you wanna have that, that bigger impact. From a sense of legacy, but ultimately what, what the work that you do trying to help people get more in touch and share the humanness in them, those human parts, is that when people are more in touch with their humanity.

They're living more into their possibilities, but also, you know, creating more meaning for themselves, living more into their purpose and having a bigger impact with others. That, that cascading or rippling effect. Whereas other people get better at storytelling, really getting touch with, you know, in touch with and sharing those human parts about themselves.

They're also getting more meaning, more community. More sense of purpose. I might be reading into that, but am I, am I, is that somewhere near the ballpark for you? 

David: If you're going to make an assumption, let it be an assumption that that is that good and that accurate so that you got it right. That's, that's exactly what it is.

Uh, at the end of the, the, the storytelling ex skill building experience, I've had people say things like, this is profound. And it's, I, I don't think it's that what I say to them is profound. I think that the felt experience of it is profound. That's what story does. It connects audiences. It connects different parts of the organization that don't talk to each other.

It connects us with ourselves as well. Our minds and our hearts in our spirits story is the language of, of integration. It's the, the language of. Of taking dismembered systems and re bering them and bring, making them more whole. So that's what happens. This, this, this language brings us back to ourselves.

Roger: David, this has been so rewarding for me to be able to walk through how you think about the art of storytelling, about what it does for the storyteller as well as the people who. Get to hear the stories and what it means for them and really rewarding about what it means to you to be able to do this with so many other people.

So thank you for sharing your wisdom and your superpower with us. 

David: You know, I, I, I said that that groups who make meaning together become community and friends. You and I are friends now. Thank you for a rich conversation. Yes, we are. Yeah. 

Roger: Yes, we are. Thank you so much. Be well. Bye-Bye.

Thank you all for being in this conversation with us, and thank you, David, for sharing your wisdom and the potential impact of storytelling. The question I'm asking myself now after the conversation is where and how can I invite team members to share stories that champion the behaviors that we're trying to reinforce within teams and communities that we care about?

What do you know to be true is the Three Blue Pens production. And I'm your host, Roger Kassner. We are recording on the ancestral lands of the Duwamish and Suquamish people to discover the ancestral lands of the indigenous people whose land you may be on. Go to native hyphen lands.ca. Okay. Be well my friends, and as always, love you mean it.